Mud Whale, a band based in Cleveland, Ohio, released their second album, Humans Pretending to Be Human, on November 13, 2024. This album was a spectacular display of musical talent, songwriting skills, and of feelings and moments that come straight from the heart. Mud Whale’s first album, Everything In Moderation, is a force to be reckoned with, and Humans Pretending to Be Human is no different. Mud Whale is comprised of Avery Sylvaine, who plays drums, Joe Hanson, the bassist, Justin Cheuvront, one of the guitarists, and Michael Morris, the vocalist and other guitarist.
I got the wonderful opportunity to interview Mud Whale, which you can find below, which gave me incredibly valuable and interesting insight into the creative process of the album and the album’s music itself. Mud Whale described themselves as “emo grunge”, an apt description that fits this release and the ones that came before it. In the interview, Michael, the vocalist and one of the guitarists, when asked about what they learned while making and releasing their first album and how that influenced Humans Pretending to Be Human, said “we leaned into our post-hardcore/alternative elements, kept the beat up for more of the album, and tried not to overstay our welcome within each song”. I found that last bit super interesting – learning how to not overstay one’s welcome within each of their creations is a hard skill to learn, and every artist of every kind has to figure that out at some point. How do you learn “less is more”? How do you internalize that and use that skill when you’re creating? Mud Whale took that skill and used it to create the perfect “amount” of everything in each song. Michael also said that “we also opened the floodgates and let ourselves experiment a lot more. Instead of saying ‘no’ to wild ideas, if anyone had something they wanted to try, we tried it”. Learning how to allow yourself to experiment creatively is a challenge itself – a lot of the time, creatives tend to stay in the “safe zone”, or to play it safe, and ultimately end up creating something very similar to something they’ve created before without intending to. Mud Whale, with their experimenting and thinking-out-of-the-box, created something completely new, and yet so completely Mud Whale, with Humans Pretending to Be Human.
One of my favorite tracks from this album is “Part of Me”, the final track on the album. I deeply love this track and I can’t get enough of it. When I asked Mud Whale about this track, Michael said that “‘Part of Me’ was one of the most exciting to write. We were at the tail end of preparing to record the album, and the bulk of the song came to me in 30 minutes. Then the vocal melodies I had down in the next 30. Justin helped me write a piece that was missing, then everyone pretty much had their parts written the next evening. I had vocals done in less than a day. Which is super quick for us. It usually takes weeks or months for us to finish writing something.” Then Joe, the bassist, said “[…] I didn’t know that ‘Part of Me’ was a thing until the week of,” and that “one day Justin and Michael were jamming to a 20 second riff, and the next day it was a full song”. The album’s final track is one that feels like it was always meant to be a final track, always meant to be the finale, the one where all the fireworks go off and the stage lights go crazy and you’re not sure which way is left or right. This track is the perfect culmination of everything else that Humans Pretending to Be Human is – it’s bouncy in the right ways, full of both energy and emotion, and its sound wraps around your brain and ears like a hug from a long-lost friend. There’s something enchanting about when Michael sings “but you can’t see, I’m falling asleep, I’m trying to find the way, that everything’s changed”, and when I hear it, it’s like my heart races and completely stops at the same time.
Another favorite track of mine is “All I Need”, the sixth track on the album and a truly incredible song. I asked Mud Whale about this track as well, and Michael said, “‘All I Need’ is about my partner and my cats. At the end of the day, they’re the reason I get up in the morning and hurry home in the evening. I’d do anything for them, and if they were all I had, that’d be enough”. I’m sure a lot of us feel that way about someone or something – that that person or animal or thing is what gets us up in the morning, and that if they or it was all that we had, it would be enough and it would be just fine. This track is full of my favorite signature Mud Whale sounds: chunky guitar, heavy drums, and fun, twinkly riffs. It’s got a melody that is both gorgeous and fun, and it makes you just want to move, whether that’s jumping around or just tapping your fingers on your car’s steering wheel. When I asked Mud Whale about this track, Avery, the drummer, said, “it was initially tough for me to write parts I was happy with on ‘All I Need’. The finished product is one of my favorite songs I’ve ever helped write. The shaker in the second verse was a spur of the moment ‘see what sticks’ kind of thing and as soon as we recorded it and listened back, we all loved the sense of urgency and momentum it gave that section of the song. It was very serendipitous. I couldn’t imagine that verse without it now. I also love the way we wrote the ending in a way that continuously builds into a gratifying resolution”. One of the guitarists, Justin, said “some of it felt very much like me seeing how much Michael would let me get away with (smiley/winky face emoticon)” when I asked him about both “All I Need” and “Part of Me”.
Interviewing Mud Whale was very special – when I first got into DIY music, Mud Whale was one of the first bands that I gravitated towards and fell in love with. I have been obsessed with their first album, Everything In Moderation, for a long time now. When I was writing interview questions, I tried to make sure that I was creating questions that were both fun and thought-provoking, and I’m really excited for everyone to read what Mud Whale had to say.
Valor: Humans Pretending to Be Human is a landmark LP in the sense that I firmly believe the hype for it will remain years after its release. I’m sure that there were a lot of feelings about its release – how did it feel when this album came out?
Michael: this album together for 3 years, but it was also our first release with our current lineup. Justin (lead guitar) and Avery (drums) joined the band in 2021 after our first album, and they really elevated our sound. That made Joe and me bring our A-game, too. Even before we showed anyone, we were very stoked and proud of what we made together. After the initial relief of finally putting it out, the reception has been heartening to say the least.
Joe: I always like to say that having Justin and Avery in the band is like sitting in a Lamborghini, itching to get it out on the open highway. The stuff that they can do on guitar and drums is inhuman.
Avery: It’s exciting, and honestly relieving, to finally release Mud Whale music that Justin and I are a part of after 3 years being in the band. The reception to the album has been monumental (for a small band like us) and I feel deeply proud of what we’ve created.
Justin: I was very surprised. Getting such an enthusiastic and positive response from both friends and new listeners has been exciting and humbling. It was also very personally exciting for me to work with Mark Michalik (mixing) as he made my favorite record of all time, so that felt like a milestone moment for me.
Valor: This is your second album – was there anything you learned from the making and/or releasing of your first album that influenced this second one?
Michael: So many things. Aside from all of us growing musically, we really tried to hone in our writing. I enjoyed the first album, but we wanted this album to have more energy. We leaned more into our post-hardcore/alternative elements, kept the beat up for more of the album, and tried not to overstay our welcome within each song. It was definitely an intentional goal to keep track times down. I’ve always been a big fan of short songs that grab you and make you want to listen to them over and over again. We also opened up the flood gates and let ourselves experiment a lot more. Instead of saying “no” to wild ideas, if anyone had something they wanted to try, we tried it. If it didn’t work, we messed around with it or went another route. I think that went a long way in letting each of us express ourselves while making the album diverse, but still servicing the songs.
Joe: We (Michael and I) agreed that we were a bit too restrictive at times on the first album in terms of people fully fleshing out their ideas. This time around it felt like 4 creative people bringing their A game in the performances and riffs / fills / etc., with basically zero limitations, and I feel like Humans has more personality because of that. Having Justin handle the recording and engineering (thanks again Justin!) made for a super smooth and fun recording process.
Valor: Were there any bands/artists that heavily influenced the sound of Humans Pretending to Be Human?
Michael: For me it was Circa Survive, Turnstile, Modern Baseball, La Dispute, Touché Amoré, Rainbow Kitten Surprise, Title Fight, Superheaven, Basement, Animal Crossing soundtracks, Modest Mouse, My Chemical Romance, Hail The Sun.
Joe: We’ve gotten a lot of Nirvana comparisons as well, especially on Smoke Signals. I grew up in Olympia (WA), so that’s a huge honor for me!
Avery: In general, I’ve been massively influenced by bands like Paramore and The Mars Volta. I think those come through in almost everything I work on.
Justin: Your Best Friend, Death Cab For Cutie, Sithu Aye, and Intervals are probably the main ones for me in general, but for this record I definitely took some inspiration from Microwave. Their latest record covered a lot of sonic ground very successfully and I think that we were able to do the same.
Valor:What is your favorite piece of inspiration that went into the LP – whether it’s sound-wise, or inspiration that’s not music-related?
Michael: My favorite inspiration is probably the people in my life. The album’s through line is relationships in the most general sense. Could be with people close to you, people who you don’t get along with, your surroundings, your passions. At this point, I’m really fortunate to be surrounded by so many amazing people. That really fueled me through a lot of our writing.
Joe: Musically, there is one spot in particular – the second half of the second verse of All I Need – where I was drawing pretty heavy inspiration from a Cincinatti, OH band that I really like called Variegated. That guitar part is very much inspired by them and their guitar work (thanks, Adam!). Otherwise my favorite inspiration for this record was the other members of the band. I loved doing my best to punch up ideas that Michael brought to the table, or just finding little places where I can lock in with Avery on the drums (like the second half of the verses in Checking In with the way the hi-hats and guitars line up). Making music with your friends is inspiring.
Valor: I think my favorite tracks from Humans Pretending to Be Human might be “Part of Me” and “All I Need” – could you tell me more about what went into these tracks? (Inspiration, the recording process, anything!)
Michael: Thank you! “All I Need” is about my partner and my cats. At the end of the day, they’re the reason I get up in the morning and hurry home in the evening. I’d do anything for them, and if they were all I had, that’d be enough. This one was a little tough to write because the chorus has the guitars built around this 3/4 feel while the drums hold the beat to 4/4. Once we got it, it was really satisfying. I also really enjoyed having the end of the song build up tension. “Part of Me” was one of the most exciting to write. We were at the tail end of preparing to record the album, and the bulk of the song came to me in 30 minutes. Then the vocal melodies I had down in the next 30. Justin helped me write a piece that was missing, then everyone pretty much had their parts written the next evening. I had vocals done in less than a day. Which is super quick for us. It usually takes weeks or months for us to finish writing something
Joe: Even I didn’t know that Part of Me was a thing until the week of. One day Justin and Michael were jamming to a 20 second riff, and the next day it was a full song.
Avery: It was initially tough for me to write parts I was happy with on All I Need. The finished product is one of my favorite songs I’ve ever helped write. The shaker in the second verse was a spur of the moment “see what sticks” kind of thing and as soon as we recorded it and listened back, we all loved the sense of urgency and momentum it gave that section of the song. It was very serendipitous. I couldn’t imagine that verse without it now. I also love the way we wrote the ending in a way that continuously builds into a gratifying resolution. “Fun fact” about Part of Me – We were in a time crunch to get working on the album and that’s the song I had the least time with. I was able to flesh out other songs over the course of months, if not years, so having to write all of the drums and percussion within a few days was a bit stressful. There are some things I wish I could go back and adjust but ultimately I’m happy with how it turned out and a lot of people really love that song. It’s got one of my favorite choruses on the album.
Justin: Yeah, those are my favorite two songs on the record as well! They are the two songs where I feel like I wrote and played the most fun and interesting guitar parts. Some of it felt very much like me seeing how much Michael would let me get away with 😉
Valor: Based on what I’ve heard from friends, a lot of people really like “Smoke Signals” – did you expect this? What track is your favorite?
Michael: We really appreciate that! We played a majority of these songs for a while at shows to workshop them and get people’s reactions. That was definitely one that got great reception, so we had a feeling it would be received well. Regardless, it still exceeded our expectations. Right now, I think my favorite is “Fluorescent.” It’s my favorite to play live right now, and the trap beat at the end (produced by my friend Chase Rawlinson) really sets it apart from the norm.
Joe: I’ll give you two of my favorite moments on the album. One is Justin’s guitar lead after the first chorus in Little Place. Mud Whale has been working on that song since I joined the band in 2019, and hearing Justin write that part was like watching Picasso observe a bowl of fruit and turn it into a masterpiece. He added a whole new layer of depth and style to a song that I had considered “mostly finished.” The other moment is Avery’s drumming towards the end of Fluorescent, just before the trap part. Avery is always incredibly tasteful with her playing, so it’s ridiculously satisfying to hear her go off and “show off” a bit. That blast beat is everything!
Avery: It’s funny, because “Smoke Signals” was initially my least favorite song on the album. It’s by far our ‘simplest’ song and it didn’t click with me at first. As it came together, I ended up really falling in love with it. Audiences and friends have responded better to it than I had ever imagined, and I think the simplicity of it is part of the reason. It’s a short, fun song without any fluff. My personal favorite songs are “All I Need” and “Echo Through”. Pay attention to Justin’s leads in the 2nd verse of “All I Need” – that’s my favorite thing he plays on the whole album.
Valor: What is your favorite part of listeners’ reactions to the LP so far? Was there anything that surprised you?
Michael: I’m surprised that a majority of people seem to love the album all the way through. I thought tracks like “Little Place” or “Echo Through” would be deep cuts that don’t get that much play, but from what I’m seeing, it seems to be an even spread of love to all of the tracks.
Joe: When I started playing guitar in my early teens I never thought that anyone would care about the music I made, beyond a gig here and a cover there. Our experience playing our album release show, the energy in the room, the fact that so many people showed up to hear the whole thing… I just never thought that my music would lead to a night like that. I can’t get over the fact that people are taking time to listen to this album when there’s so much other great music that could deservedly steal their attention.
Avery: Like Michael said, I expected some songs to be glossed over, but Echo Through has gotten a ton of praise. That’s one of my favorites, so it means the world that people love it as much as they seem to. I’ve heard someone say “This is my favorite track!” about every single song on the record at least once, and that’s an incredible feeling. To know we put out an album that people genuinely love start to finish is such an honor. The energy and interaction with the crowd at the release show was electric.
Justin: The whole experience has been surprising, exhilarating, and humbling. I thought that our friends would like it and we’d probably have an okay release show. I am very much on Joe’s page where I never really expected anyone to really care about the music I make – we’re literally a drop in the ocean of so many other amazing artists! I’m very grateful that so many people have been enjoying and interacting with the music, it has absolutely blown away any expectations that I had. I would also be remiss not to mention the amazing work Michael did in promoting the release and staying on top of the socials. I’m sure that went very far in making the release a success.
Valor: You released three singles from the album before the album released – why did you choose those specific ones?
Michael: We tried to pick the fastest, hardest hitting tracks that we got the biggest responses from at shows. “Checking In” was the first song we wrote together in this lineup, the first new song we played out, and the first song on the album. So we thought it would be appropriate if it was the first single. We chose “Smoke Signals” ‘cause it was a quick, heavy hitter we thought people would get pumped for. Then “Sacrifice” for the same reasons, but that one started to delve into different parts of our influences. Those 3 felt like a nice escalation of simple to more complicated songs to ease people into the album and set expectations.
Avery: We deliberated about what songs to release as singles for a while. It’s a wild feeling when you think “wow, almost all of these songs are single-worthy”. It was a struggle to narrow it down, but ultimately I think we made the right choices for the 3 songs. They’re a great showcase of what we have to offer as a band, including our softer side, which was hinted at in the middle of “Checking In”.
Valor: What’s the track from the album that you think will be/is the most exciting/fun to play live?
Michael: We love playing all of them. It’s been fun playing “Echo Through” because it’s the moodiest song on the album and the last one we premiered live, so it’s still pretty fresh to the set list. We go pretty wild at the bridge.
Joe: The trap part at the end of Fluorescent is always a ton of fun. People aren’t expecting it! We also have a couple of tunes with sort of CSNY-style 3 part vocal harmonies that are really satisfying to pull off live. The very end of Sacrifice is a great example.
Avery: The live rendition of the trap beat in Flourescent is maybe the most fun individual part for me to play because I don’t have many opportunities to play parts like that in front of a crowd – plus the crowds always have a huge reaction to that part.
Justin: Part of Me is the most fun for me to play live. I love the guitar parts I play and the big vocal harmonies in the choruses sound great. Fluorescent is also a lot of fun, but I always go into the end with no idea what I’m going to play. Sometimes I think I stick the landing and other times I definitely don’t lol. Maybe one day I’ll actually write a live ending for that song, but we’ll see.
Valor: Do you have any dream shows? (Whether it’s a dream venue, or bands to play with, etc.)
Michael: Right now my goal is to get us on The Fest in Florida. I went a couple years back and it’s one of my favorites right now. Really redeemed Florida for me. Dream band to play with would probably be Title Fight if they ever got back together. That crowd would be wild.
Joe: I’m pretty sure that Deftones, Gojira, and Poppy were all supposed to tour together in 2020. Getting the phone call to be on that bill would probably give me a heart attack. I would also throw Ben Quad into the mix. We played a basement show at the Birdhouse with them last year, and they were AMAZING live and super chill people. I’d love to get back on stage with them!
Avery: Honestly, I want to play outside of the states. Most of our listeners are from the US, but our second top country is Brazil so I would love to travel there and play some shows. Playing outside of North America would be a massive milestone for me.
Justin: My dream show would be Your Best Friend, Death Cab For Cutie (pre-2010), TTNG, and Microwave in the Birdhouse basement. I don’t even have to play it, I’d just go to that show and pay a lot of money for it. Unfortunately, that’s pretty much impossible because Your Best Friend is long gone and it’s also post pre-2010.
With their first album being a DIY staple, Mud Whale was sure to land another home run with their second, and they did, hitting the proverbial baseball out of the park with Humans Pretending to Be Human. This album is both a piece of art and an experience. It has a particular ambience and atmosphere to it, creating this feeling that draws you back to nostalgia and memories that are a little too good, or strong, to forget. The sounds at play in Humans Pretending to Be Human are so Mud Whale-coded and so new at the same time, almost as if Mud Whale is taking everything they learned from the first album and from collaborating as a group and fostered that knowledge, growing it into something new and even more beautiful and captivating. All in all, Mud Whale’s second album is a must-listen, one that is going to wrap you tight in its arms and never let you go.
Written by Valor
